My Interview with Cheryl Jacques, Former HRC President & LGBT Civil Rights Leader

Cheryl Jacques, Former President of HRC This past week I had the opportunity to speak personally with Cheryl Jacques, the past President of the Human Rights Campaign and the former Massachusetts State Senator. She and I had a candid conversation about the Employment NonDiscrimination Act, which recently passed the House without transgender protections. I wanted to post the interview on my blog for my readers. Find the entire content online at Campus Pride by clicking http://www.campuspride.org/supporttransENDA.asp.

Think. Act. Enjoy!

Interview Begins.

Shane: Cheryl, thank you for your support of Campus Pride. I hear you have been visiting several college campuses lately. I think it is great that you have put so much attention toward working with young people.

As you know, one of the most controversial issues impacting our national movement relates to the removal of transgender protections from the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA). I had recently read your Op Ed piece titled "Putting the 'T' into ENDA" published in the Washington Blade in 2004. I found it timely and provocative given that there is so much disagreement surrounding ENDA today and how to move forward with the legislation. As you know, the removal of transgender protections by U.S. Congressman Barney Frank has truly galvanized our LGBT community with UNITED ENDA (www.unitedenda.org). Do you feel that your comments still hold true today?

Cheryl: Yes and as a matter of fact they are more relevant today because of the debate we are currently seeing in Congress and among LGBT civil rights leaders about whether and when to fight for transgender rights. The good news is that there is an incredibly strong and united group of organizations - UNITED ENDA -- which I know includes Campus Pride -- that stand firmly behind the ideal that I championed while at HRC to fight for everyone's inclusion in ENDA. Now more than ever we should use our new found strength and acceptance to make sure we stay strong, united and don't leave anyone behind in our fight for equality.

Shane: Both you and I have a long history supporting HRC and you -- more precisely as past HRC President. Today HRC has taken the stance of supporting an inclusive ENDA; however, HRC has also expressed that it will not advocate Congress to vote against a bill that does not include transgender protections. What is the thought process politically behind this strategy?

Cheryl: As you may know, I served for over a decade as a State Senator in Massachusetts. There are two schools of thought when it comes to passing legislation, work incrementally to get the kinds of protections or laws that you want passed - or push for the full law you want to see enacted. In my experience, incrementalism is sometimes expedient but it almost always creates a less than perfect result. Even in Massachusetts, where there is a non-discrimination law - it only protects sexual orientation. At the time it was passed, advocates said we would go back later and deal with gender identity and expression - but it was never done. And the political reality of ENDA today is that even if the were to pass a non-inclusive bill through both branches of Congress the President has said he will veto the bill and we don't have enough votes to override that veto. So - we will leave behind an important part of our community; create incredible heartache and ill will - all for a shallow political gain.

I know from having held office and worked with elected officials how important it is not to send mixed messages. The best approach is to advocate whole-heartedly behind one position. When you say to lawmakers..."we are ok with either option A or B" then you better be prepared to accept either option A or B. Here, I believe all the advocacy groups should draw the line in the sand and say clearly and unequivocally -- We want you to support only an inclusive ENDA.

Shane: Precisely. So, as you suggest, all LGBT and ally voices should be speaking with one voice... I believe that is what UNITED ENDA with over 200+ LGBT and ally national and statewide organizations is doing-- including Campus Pride - but why does HRC disagree and won't commit to only support ENDA that is fully inclusive... or no ENDA at all?

Cheryl: I recommend you ask the new President of HRC that question as he is in the best position to explain their thinking on this.

Shane: You mentioned earlier a "shallow political gain" and that really rings so true... so what is the purpose of passing a non-inclusive ENDA in the House, and possibly the Senate, if President Bush has vowed to veto it? Are there potentially other political and financial motivations behind passing gay-inclusive legislation by Democratic Leadership?

Cheryl: There are always a host of agendas and motivations - obvious and hidden - in a legislative initiative. I am sure it is no different with this legislative battle over ENDA. Once again, I think the best thing our community can do is remain united and speak with a single voice that the only ENDA that is acceptable is an inclusive one. At the end of the day - what matters most is passing legislation that fully protects each and every member of this vibrant, diverse community we work with, not a short-term political victory.

Shane: Do you find this debate over the T in ENDA damaging to our community or helpful? What do you believe is most important lessons learned from this?

Cheryl: Every civil rights battle has witnessed internal struggles over leadership, vision, and strategy. We are no different and if we come out of this conflict united it will continue to strengthen us as a community for the next battle we face -- and sadly we have more battles to fight ahead.

Shane: Okay, this question may be a bit personal... but as the first openly gay State Senator in Massachusetts history, what is your past and current relationship with U.S. Congressman Barney Frank of the State of Massachusetts? Youth at colleges and universities who have heard him speak about ENDA in the past have commented that he never has been really committed to transgender protections in ENDA, do you believe this?

Cheryl: I have an excellent relationship with Congressman Frank and the utmost respect for him as a human being and lawmaker. One of the things I admire the most about Congressman Frank is that his name is more than just a name -- he is indeed Frank about everything. While I may not always agree with him, I admire that he is blunt, honest, and quite frank about his opinions. Many politicians tell you what you want to hear, speak out of both sides of their mouths and don't stand for anything. You can never say that about Congressman Frank and I admire that greatly.

Shane: With all this in mind, what is the best strategy to pass an inclusive-ENDA law? Do you believe an incremental approach is best to persuade lawmakers?

Cheryl: If I thought an incremental approach would work I would certainly consider supporting it and in fact sometimes it does work with legislation. However, in this instance I don't think incremental will be successful. The history of passing non-discrimation legislation at the state level teaches us this because many of the non-discrimination measures passed without gender identity and expression protections have not been updated. We cannot leave behind a core part of our community, one that is still fighting to undo the discrimination, misunderstanding and prejudice that they face. We have made great strides in gaining public support for gays and lesbians and many have changed their hearts and minds about how they feel about accepting gay couples. We need to continue this education work to make sure that transgender people gain the same level of acceptance and more. If the community leaves them behind on this bill, I think it is highly unlikely that Congress will ever revisit this discussion. Given that transgender people and people who don't fit gender norms are disproportionately impacted by employment discrimination, the gender identity and expression protections are often times the most important protections we can deliver.

Shane: Many LGBT policy makers and leaders have echoed these sentiments ... and from the perspective of college campuses and youth leaders, I know there are strong feelings toward not leaving transgender persons out of ENDA. You might already know this, but there are currently sixty plus U.S. colleges and universities that prohibit discrimination based on gender identity and, or expression. How do you think ENDA and the transgender exclusion impacts youth today and their work on college campuses?

Cheryl: I think that it is important that older leaders of the movement show the younger generation how important it is to stay united and not to let anyone divide us in our pursuit of equality for all individuals -- including transgender people. Young people get this and have worked hard to fight for inclusive protections -- lets not send them a message that contradicts that they are right. An inclusive ENDA is the right leadership for them to support and witness.

Shane: Thank you, Cheryl. I think your leadership by example is right on target and a valuable lesson to not be divided in our fight for equality for LGBT Americans. You definitely take that to heart. Thank you for letting us reprint your Op Ed piece online...I know you are very busy and we appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Interview Ends.